Music By Jason

Music By Jason Forums => The Composers' Workshop => Topic started by: Vinnie Johnson on April 08, 2016, 01:09:40 PM



Title: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on April 08, 2016, 01:09:40 PM
This thread is under construction.

What is needed in an epic fantasy track ?

You must be good in serious music. I have make a complete bibliography on my website

http://vinniejohnson.legtux.org/theory

Cherubini books are more difficult, so study before with Bazin and Taneyev.

There is two ways in arrangement : classical or popular orchestration.

What is the difference beetween a popular and a classical orchestra ?

First i want to compare used orchestra with a symphonic orchestra.

https://youtu.be/un3W31jzOCw

https://youtu.be/SQNymNaTr-Y

A symphonic orchestra, why not ?


I don't want to say that a symphonic orchestra is not fine, but i think we can make better nowodays.

What are the differences ?


it's a small orchestra found in "practical instrumentation" by Frank Paterson

https://archive.org/details/practicalinstrum00patt

What is good, what is bad ?


The ensemble is great, however today we can use an amplified violin better than 1 Violin.

The bass tuba can be replaced by an electric bass guitar

the following coming soon


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on April 09, 2016, 09:40:12 AM
A tuba is essential in an orchestra, isn't it ?

Rimsky-Korsakov has said :

Here the distribution of chords in close three-part harmony is self-evident; any grouping of three instruments of the same timbre is sure to sound well.

The method of using three instruments of the same timbre in widely divided three-part harmony is inferior.

But if the third instrument is of low register (Bass flute, English horn, Bass Clarinet, or Contrabassoon), the resonance will be satisfactory.


We have a perfect balance in brass section with 2 trumpets plus 1 trombone. It's enough.

In Woodwinds section we have 1 Flute, 1 Clarinet, 2 altos saxophones. It's wrong.

So it's better with 2 Altos saxophones, 1 Tenor saxophone ?

It's a perfect balance in woodwinds section. Unfortunately Adolphe Sax in his brevet said :

un instrument qui par le caractère de sa voix pût se rapprocher des instruments à cordes, mais qui possédât plus de force et d'intensité que ces derniers (Brevet français no 3 226 du 21 mars 1846.

Also strings must be replaced by guitars. I have spoken about this in my topic of "souncloud group" for beginners composers.

http://www.musicbyjason.com/forum/index.php?topic=1100.0

What is exactly instruments inside ?

The following instruments are included in the basic orchestra :

- 1 Flute
- 1 Bb Clarinet
- 2 Altos saxophones
- 2 Bb Trumpets
- 1 Trombone
- 1 Piano
- 2 Silents violins
- 1 Silent alto
- 1 Silent cello
- 1 Bass guitar
- 1 Drum kit

It's an hybrid genre, so i can use a heavy metal kit ?

No you can't. Woodwinds and brass are very old instruments. An ideal drum kit is a vintage kit.

I'll be back, for the ending of my explanations.


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Melda on April 11, 2016, 12:40:50 AM
Hello everyone. :)

Vinnie asked me to correct any English that I thought was incomprehensible or correct. Incidentally I'm now a specialist English teacher of speakers of other languages, so here's my version below.  ;D

Vinnie, my apologies if I misconstrue or misinterpret anything you've written. ;)


This thread is under construction.

What is needed in an epic fantasy track ?

You must have a good understanding of serious music. I have made a complete bibliography on my website

http://vinniejohnson.legtux.org/theory

Cherubini books are more difficult, so study Bazin and Taneyev beforehand.

There are two main types of arrangement : classical or popular orchestration.

What is the difference between a popular and a classical orchestra ?

First I want to compare a used orchestra with a symphonic orchestra.

https://youtu.be/un3W31jzOCw

https://youtu.be/SQNymNaTr-Y

A symphonic orchestra, why not ?


I don't want to say that a symphonic orchestra is not good, but I think we can do better nowadays.

What are the differences ?


This is a small orchestra found in "practical instrumentation" by Frank Paterson

https://archive.org/details/practicalinstrum00patt

What is good, what is bad ?


The ensemble is great, however today we can use an amplified violin better than 1 violin.

The bass tuba can be replaced by an electric bass guitar

the following coming soon

A tuba is essential in an orchestra, isn't it ?

Rimsky-Korsakov has said :

Here the distribution of chords in close three-part harmony is self-evident; any grouping of three instruments of the same timbre is sure to sound well.

The method of using three instruments of the same timbre in widely divided three-part harmony is inferior.

But if the third instrument is of low register (Bass flute, English horn, Bass Clarinet, or Contrabassoon), the resonance will be satisfactory.


We have a perfect balance in brass section with 2 trumpets plus 1 trombone. It's enough.

In the Woodwinds section we have 1 Flute, 1 Clarinet, 2 alto saxophones. It's wrong.

So it's better with 2 Alto saxophones and 1 Tenor saxophone ?

It's a perfect balance in woodwinds section. Unfortunately Adolphe Sax in his brevet said :

un instrument qui par le caractère de sa voix pût se rapprocher des instruments à cordes, mais qui possédât plus de force et d'intensité que ces derniers (Brevet français no 3 226 du 21 mars 1846.

Also strings must be replaced by guitars. I have spoken about this in my topic of "souncloud group" for beginners composers.

http://www.musicbyjason.com/forum/index.php?topic=1100.0

What exactly are the instruments ?

The following instruments are included in the basic orchestra :

- 1 Flute
- 1 Bb Clarinet
- 2 Alto saxophones
- 2 Bb Trumpets
- 1 Trombone
- 1 Piano
- 2 Silent* violins
- 1 Silent* alto
- 1 Silent* cello
- 1 Bass guitar
- 1 Drum kit

((*I am not sure what is meant by 'silent' so I've left it as-is))

It's a hybrid genre, so can I use a heavy metal kit ?

No you can't. Woodwinds and brass are very old instruments. An ideal drum kit is a vintage kit.

I'll be back for the final part of my explanation.


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on April 11, 2016, 01:06:13 AM
Thnaks melda, you are very kind  :)


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on May 11, 2016, 10:48:43 AM
Here is my third and last part. The latest and the most difficult.

What is a silent string ?

It's a electric instrument.

An electric string is a string equipped with an electronic output of its sound.

https://youtu.be/cU0OTgYgOns

The problem between strings and saxophones is solved/disappears with a Fender 57 champ amplifier used with electric strings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXmreHo2LMg

The better drum kit that i know is a Ludwig keystone.

https://youtu.be/AmQvXewngEI

See Amplitube for the amplifier Toontrack for the drum kit.

How can find these books ?

Some have been digitalized

- French language

you can buy a electronic dictionary, because the french books mentioned are better. Foreign books are based on oldest methods of composition.

François Bazin, "Cours d'harmonie théorique et pratique" (https://archive.org/details/coursdharmonieth00bazi)
François Bazin, "Cours de contrepoint théorique et pratique" (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96191814.r=bazin%20cours%20contrepoint)
Emile Durand, "Traité de composition musicale" (https://archive.org/details/traitdecomposi00dura)

- english translation

Luigi Cherubini, "A Course of Counterpoint and Fugue" (https://archive.org/details/treatiseoncounte00cher)
Sergei Taneiev, "Convertible counterpoint in the strict style" (https://archive.org/details/convertiblecount00tane)

Tanieiv is translated in english, so if you don't speak fluent in french it's a precious help to understand rules of double counterpoint with a method based on Algebra. Unfortunately there are only few exercises.

- If you don't want to study in a foreign language.

Ouseley was a pupil of Cherubini.

Frederick Ouseley, "A treatise on harmony" (https://archive.org/details/treatiseonharmon1883ouse)

The books titled "marches d'harmonie" by Luigi Cherubini, and Alexis De Garaudé 'L'harmonie rendue facile" have not be found in internet libraries.

Try to improve your music with skills in sampled instruments is a waste of time. If you have the time, it's better to be a bookworm.  :D

At last ?

Keep in mind, that's it's more beneficial for you to make a recording with actuals instruments.  ;)

You are lucky if you find musicians who agree to play your music.  :D

That’s unfortunate. There may be some, just harder to find.

I want to say that the other band with three saxophones is better/superior, because of the perfect balance in brass and woodwinds together. The main inconvenient it's that is not give an orchestral sound.

As you can see here, the strings, the flute and the clarinet have disappeared (changement made between 1923 and 1926, see also "Arranging for the modern dance orchestra" by Arthur Lange).

- 2 Altos saxophones
- 1 Tenor saxophone
- 2 Bb Trumpets
- 1 Trombone
- 1 Piano
- 1 Electric bass guitar (lead guitar)
- 1 Archtop guitar (rythmic guitar)
- 1 Bass guitar
- 1 Drum kit


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on June 04, 2016, 07:45:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdWs6t69Lvg&index=1&list=PLanzEILgqT0NcXEqbLfe2U0_-hX0vutV9

 :D


Title: Re: How to make an epic fantasy track
Post by: Vinnie Johnson on August 29, 2016, 07:14:16 AM
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96908275.r=marches%20d%27harmonie%20cherubini?rk=21459;2